How Young Is Too Young?

posted by papi blez

Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 03:17:30 AM EDT

OK so you all know that I let my daughter play games with me.  But I watch what she sees like a hawk.  The games we play are games like Up and LittleBigPlanet.  She loves games, mind you, and she looks forward to Friday evenings with Papi because she knows it's LBP day.  She goes crazy over that stuff.

So what's my point?  I'm not trying to judge how someone else raises their kids but I can't help it.  Especially when I did venture out on XBL or PSN and hear some nine year old screaming some nasty expletives.

I was out looking at houses and we came to this one house we really liked.  It was being rented out to people who happened to be home at the time, or at least a grandmother and her grandson.  The house had a third level that was basically a small loft area.  And the grandson was probably around 7 or 8 and he was sitting there in nothing but his undies playing Saint's Row 2.  I quickly told my wife to make sure that Maya didn't go upstairs for long because I know my daughter and if she sees someone playing video games, no matter who it is, she's going to want to sit down and play with them.  We ushered her out of there as quickly as we could.

But here is my question, fellow Gearheads...what is a kid that age doing playing Saint's Row 2?  I guess maybe somewhere down the road I might understand how if your child is mature enough to handle the distinction between reality and fantasy, then maybe you consider it.  But I just have a hard time believing that this would be the case.  Am I just being a prude about this?  Or can you see it being OK for a kid that age to be playing that game?


Tags: saint's row 2 (all tags)

Comments Disabled | 32 comments

  •  Depends on the kid (none / 0)

    I've been playing everything since before i can remember and i turned out ok right? Kids scream on XBL because their parents suck not cause of the game. i hope Johann doesn't mind me using him as an example.

    Also someone might be scared or harmed if they see Gears but you also cant protect them from something their gonna see anyways. Best thing to do is show them and have you explain instead of some disgruntled teacher or asshole friend. Same thing with sex and drugs. The kids that get overprotected end up hurt more in the long run. Kinda like those guys that graduate from a catholic school and go insane for the next 10 years.

    by Infidel on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 03:45:36 AM EDT

  •  well (none / 0)

    as a parent you have to make your own decisions for your children. Try not to look at other people's kids for guidance and direction. I personally would not let a child at that age play a game like that myself so i can't say.

    I agree with infidel if you don't shelter your kids and show them that they have choices when it comes to life they might be able to make better decisions.

    My dad told me if you ever want to do drugs watch someone on the drug first and how they act and how their life is and then make your own decisions.

    Give me a minute and I'll change your mind, Give me a bullet and I'll change your life! - Slipknot

    by MDK2002 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 10:15:12 AM EDT

    •  That drug referrence is a bit iffy. (none / 0)

      I'm not condoning that people do it, but seeing as experiences are different with each person - no matter the drug - watching someone else and then you doing it yourself are two completely different things.

      Just throwin' it out there.

      "Vuht? Ze Panzerz? WHO LET ZE PANZERZ OUWT?!?!?!?!"

      by Grymm on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 03:20:50 PM EDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well (none / 0)

    I think I am one of the youngest members here (16), and I agree with you Papi. Whenever I have kids, their not going to be playing these games at 6 or 7, that's just absurd.

    Mind you, my first M rated game was Metal Gear Solid 2:Substance, and that came out in 2001, but i didn't get until 2002 (so I was about 9 years old). So yeah, maybe I'm the biggest hypocrite here, but I stand by your views.

    Maybe it's also the fact that I grew up playing Pokemon while this kid grew up playing Saints Row 2... wtf? lol. I have Saints Row 2 and it even shocks me sometimes with it's foul language and provocative acts. I know there's gotta be something wrong running through his head. I know when something is too violent, or too unreal, but his little 6 year old mind may not. He will probably grow up treating women like property, or doing drugs, or who knows what. I think from me starting out with unrealistic games which were aimed at the child demographic, it showed me that games were nothing like real life and that they were made for fun.

    Fast forward 7 years after MGS2 and M rated games are the norm for me. But that's just it, I know what I'm seeing is fake. He's at the age where he just stopped asking question after question after question and he uses visuals to back up his theories. If he's seeing women dancing on poles and thugs shootin' and cussing after every other word, I think he'll have some trouble when he grows up.

    Another little sidenote before I end my rant, I think a big factor whole thing in this is graphics. Back in the MGS2 days, the graphics weren't so hot so yeah, you could snap a guys neck, but it sorta looked like you were hugging him or something, idk. But nowadays since the graphics have had such an up haul, you look at games such as God of War 3, and you see Kratos literally forcing the guys tendons in his neck to snap until ultimately his head pops off and Kratos is hold the blood-drenched head in his hand. It makes you ask (even though that was awesome) when is enough, enough?

    Sorry for the huge rant, I just thought I'd express what I think coming from a kid's perspective.

    by Elite94 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 12:30:38 PM EDT

    •  my jaw literally dropped (none / 0)

      when I saw that video. The graphics look so damn good. Especially when you look at Kratos. It looks like what the cutscenes looked like in the first 2 games. I think that game might be a little too brutal for an M rating based on that head-ripping video. Thats pretty gruesome... but I love it.

      R.I.P Polandstyle :: 9/8/68 - 3/16/09 ::

      by RoBBins0096 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 01:59:56 PM EDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  haha (none / 0)

      He will probably grow up treating women like property, or doing drugs, or who knows what.

      My high school and the middle school (7th/8th grade) are perfect examples of this. Most of the 8th graders that are becoming freshmen next year already do drugs, smoke and chew, and are full of, excuse my language with this, sluts and whores. I'm only 17 and I think the way kids are nowadays is just freaking ridiculous.

      "Vuht? Ze Panzerz? WHO LET ZE PANZERZ OUWT?!?!?!?!"

      by Grymm on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 03:28:43 PM EDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I might be the youngest (none / 0)

      but I do belive that there is a age for games like Pokemon to Mario Bros but a 7 or 8 year old playing Saints Row is just outrageous!! I started playing GOW when it came out and im still not alowed to play Saints Row( couldn't care less tho.) But yeah he is way 2 young and also im going to let my kidies (when I have them) let them play at the same age as me because im perfectly normal (I think and hope) and that is what I gotta say about that...

      when I fall I get up. But when you fall,would you kindly stay down...

      by Kalral on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 03:46:56 PM EDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good post papi (none / 0)

    Yeah I played saints row 2 but I was M age, and I refused to play it at any time when my younger brothers were down stairs or even awake it just felt wrong. However, as I was walking down the strip in Vegas, we stopped to check out Caesars Palace, (which is amazingly awesome by the way) there were these 4 kids, one looked about 6, the others were no older than 10, and they had a massive stack of Call girl cards that people pass out on the strip. They were trading these cards with naked women on them like I did Pokemon cards when I was a kid. It disgusted me and I couldn't believe that parents wouldn't keep an eye on there kids a little better

    Hmmmmmmmmm..........

    by CovanantElite on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 01:03:04 PM EDT

  •  There is no way a 9 Year old should be (none / 0)

    playing that game- You are so right, papi.

    In terms of gaming in general, I think it depends on the kids, but playing games like Saints Row? No way. Like you said, later in life, when they can distinguish between reality and fantasy, maybe.

    Chalk another point up for crappy parents.

    "As for FFF we'll see how my social life unfolds that night. Which basically means i'll be gaming lol" -Boxin

    by SweetTea023 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 01:32:37 PM EDT

  •  I deal with this everyday (none / 0)

    I teach fourth grade and it all boils down to this: How well can your kid internalize what is going on?  Do they know the difference between fantasy and reality?  Can they hear something on a movie and know not to repeat it on the playground the next day?  It highly depends on the intelligence level of the child and how well you have raised them.

    6 or 7 is too young for Saints Row. Period.  There are way better age-appropriate games out there.  Those parents were retards, and I bet if you asked the kid's teacher they would tell you the same.

    Let's skip a few years.  If my 10 year old was responsible, did well in school, and had a firm grip on reality, I would let him or her have the freedom of choosing which games or movies to watch, but I would watch and play alongside.  My parents were very educated and liberal and I had the liberty of watching and reading whatever I wanted at a young age.  I wound up just fine, although my wife and several ex-girlfriends would argue this.  Ironically, I learned about things like genocide and blowjobs by reading the books they had in their shelves, not from the movies.

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of kids who play Grand Theft Auto cannot handle it, and their parents are usually not even paying attention.  I have had several students like that.  They can barely read or write, but will talk endlessly about Jason or Freddy.  After meeting the parents, the old adage about the apple not falling far from the tree never seems more appropriate.

    by Razor Hanzo on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 02:51:25 PM EDT

    •  agreed with everything (none / 0)

      parents are the to blame for everything.Think of the most annoying slut/whore celebrity, Brittany Spears, Paris Hilton, then see an interview with the parents. Quite enlightening.

      by Infidel on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 06:32:17 PM EDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Razor and I come across these... (none / 0)

      issues on a regular basis with our school's students. There's a colleague of ours that is the first to blame poor behavior on video games. We are the first ones to denounce that kind of thinking. However, that's how the general public reacts when there's violence perpetrated by a minor. Rather the real culprit has always been the quality of parenting.

      Games that are rated M are strictly off-limits to my students because I don't know what kind of parenting is there to monitor their recreational time. GTA-series, Saints Row, Scarface, Godfather, etc. that deal with violence, drugs, and sexual themes shouldn't be allowed for elementary kids. Period. The images shown in these types of games border on reality rather than the fantastical. When you can walk up to a cop and kill him, hit pedestrians with cars, frequent strip clubs, and partake in drugs and alcohol definitely differ from shooting zombies, monsters, and aliens.

      Parents need to be parents. Unfortunately, there is a lack of responsibility nowadays. Nothing is taboo anymore. The age of innocence has literally come to an end with young kids trying to play mommy and daddy. "Oh no, we won't raise our kids under the strict rules that our parent raised us" seems to be their excuse at everything. Instant gratification and short term goals is what they teach their children. Hit them back if they hit you. An eye for an eye. WTH?!? We deal with these kinds of parental ideologies on a daily basis. Kids look up to their parents to help them fashion a sense of conscience- to know right from wrong. If your parent is allowing you to watch movies that contain violence, nudity/sex, drugs and alcohol; your going to take this as your mother or father condoning these things as acceptable. You'd be surprised to see how much disrespect and lack of civility is on display when parents drop off and pick up their children in the morning and after school. There have been instances where parents walk into the office swearing because they're under the impression that their child has been unfairly reprimanded by a teacher or administrator. I could go on and on, but I would be sidetracking this discussion. However, I will say that it's a sad commentary when these kinds of behavior are allowed to be displayed in full public view. I shudder to think about what happens behind closed doors.

      Friends don't let friends two-piece.

      by Blankman on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 01:21:31 AM EDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well said Blank (none / 0)

         We know who these kids are.  On the other hand, I have had kids see that I'm into Gears and mention that they love it too.  This is the only time I hear of it.  These are good kids with great home support who can handle an M-rated game.

        You are right though, anything gang, sex, or drug related should be kept away from most kids, most that is.  I could handle shit like that at the age of 10, very few can.  

        I realize this is a moot point.  If your kid can't read, fucks up in school, and is an all-around pain in the ass then you have failed as a parent and you are the type who won't even heed this advice anyways.

        by Razor Hanzo on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 02:34:11 AM EDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My viewpoint (none / 0)

    Saints Row... out of the question. But i have a 9 year old nephew that plays games like Halo and I know he is able to distinguish the difference between fantasy and real life. He also loved the LOTR movies.

    My own kids though, i will judge that constantly on the go. I mean, i was pretty darn young when i played Doom and Duke Nuke'em for the first time. And growing up i played a lot of PC shooters in my early teens. So i think the age requirements on games are more general guidelines.

    The real issue here is the parents not paying attention to what their kid is doing most likely. A common thing these days. (looks outside at the little kid with no helmet crossing a busy street on his bike)

    Not all who wander are lost

    by Zoso Fan on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 03:10:25 PM EDT

  •  I think... (none / 0)

    The more you try to shelter/censor your child the more they're going to rebel. Trust me I dj/live in Austin, and the end game of girls with daddy issues isn't pretty. (PROTIP!!! they really like assholes who play instruments badly, and don't give a damn about them.)
    There's a very fine line between too much and not enough. Obviously I'm not going to force my 7 year old to watch Conan... But at the same time I'm also going to realize that my 7 year old probably already saw Conan and Friday the 13th and every other popular horror/action franchise and will have probably already played whatever the next super adult game franchise at a friend's place. I did it when I was 7, you probably did it when you were 7, and your kid is going to do it too. All you really need to do as a parent is make sure that your kid knows that all of that is fiction, and it's not okay to go psycho and kill a bunch of cops in the middle of a forest just because they were giving you crap, Soorry Rambo.. you're a bad man, but it's totally okay to enjoy watching it on the big screen.

    And as far as kids on the playground reciting raunchy lines from a movie goes, I don't see how that's any different then "mature" adults doing it at happy hour. Oh the things these virgin ears have heard.  

    by Sebastian Nebula on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 08:21:14 PM EDT

  •  Parents are, and should be (none / 0)

    held, responsible for their children. As parents, everything we say and do shapes who our children become.

    Honesty, integrity, humility, flexibility, and above all, a listening and caring ear are essential to good parenting.  Being aware of what your children are exposed to, and knowing what is going on in their lives is crucial to meeting their needs in a incredibly challenging dog-eat-dog, live-for-yourself, if-it-feels-good-do-it society.

    I really enjoy gaming.  I have decided the risk of over-exposure by allowing my boys to play some of the "M" games that I play, is outweighed by the benefit of "bonding" that takes place when we are all gaming together.  Though we may only play a couple of hours a week, the resulting stories and laughter literally entertains us all week long.

    (papi, I am not being defensive.  Yours is a good and necessary question.  :)  )

    by 3Suns on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 09:32:49 PM EDT

    •  Semi-OT On the topic of raising children (none / 0)

      Weapons of Mass Instruction

      I just got my copy of this book yesterday and I haven't had a chance to dig into it, but I can't wait.

      John Gatto won New York Teacher of the Year awards three years in a row.  One of his books is available free online.  His latest, is the one I just got.

      Here is an interview with him.

      by 3Suns on Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 10:33:31 PM EDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I was afraid of opening up this topic (none / 0)

      Because I was hoping that you or Chris or others with younger kids might think I was talking about you.  But at the same time, I think your kids are completely well adjusted and I don't think there's an issue with them playing.  At least you're an involved parent who sits there with them and can explain right and wrong.  This kid was in his undies in a room shooting cops and just being a degenerate in the game.  No supervision whatsoever.

      Some parents think I'm nuts for letting Maya even play video games at four years old, but it's something I do with her.  I make sure that what she's seeing that I can talk to her about it.  It's really about that personal responsibility as a parent and being there for questions.

      by papi blez on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 12:54:23 AM EDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I (none / 0)

        didn't think that at all Tyler.  I think a kid that age shouldn't even be able to watch someone play Saints Row, let alone play the game.  The time I had GTA 4 Dylan never once played it, and I would wait til they would go to sleep to even play it.  I would also game when Dylan was at a young age and he would hold a DreamCast controller that wasn't plugged in and sit beside me while I gamed.

        It's all on how the child is raised, judging for yourself if you think your child can handle playing M rated games, In Dylans Case (Gears, Call of Duty) for the most part.  I've talked with him and he knows that what goes on in games is FAKE and we wouldn't  just go up to someone and shoot them, or chainsaw them LOL.  I remember playing mortal kombat when I was young, and the finishing moves were pretty gory even back then.

        Your learning well my young Padawan: Polandstyle

        by GearsChrisB on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 08:05:10 PM EDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mortal Kobat Gory??? (none / 0)

          Come on chris ripping out a guys spine or pulling off a persons head or  changing into a dragon and swallowing them whole is gory. ;)

          Ahhh, mortal kombat I remember playing that game on the sega genesis my first gaming experience, I must have been real young but I never saw any fatalities probably cause I never could figure out how to do them. But regardless I loved/love the Kombat series. Scorpion is just a complete Badass. "Get Over Here" is a line that will go down in history in my book.  

          Hmmmmmmmmm..........

          by CovanantElite on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:23:00 AM EDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  There's no general answer that's right for every (none / 0)

    case. you have to judge for your own kids, when to the best of your knowledge, they're ready.  For instance. I played Turok when I was in elementary school. Pretty gory game, Had absolutely no adverse effects on me (yet...) I really think it has more to do with how the kids are brought up.  Many kids that aren't in their teens can handle M rated games, but there's obviously a line.  For instance. Gears or Halo would probably be okay in my book, whereas GTA or Saints Row is something definitely for older kids (just my opinion.)  If you have a fucked up kid, violent videogames or none, it'll be fucked up.

    by captain crunk27 on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 02:22:23 AM EDT

  •  I wish I can discuss this with an insight (none / 0)

    But Korben Santiago my son still under a year old and he can barely hold his bottle yet, he will slam the buttons of the Xbox 360 controller like a pro but his not able to hold it yet.

    At this point in time the green light from the power button is enough to entertain him, nonetheless I'm more worry about him not liking video games than he playing something not suitable to his age yet.

    I'm a Video Game Player and I have not play GTA since it first came out on the PC and that week when I rented GTA IV to solely play online with you guys, I mean graphically is a very enticing game but story wise not for me or any of my nephews which seem to get all of my old games.

    So, maybe in a few years, in the meantime I don't think there are so many games he would like to play right now that I would't want him to play.

    :P

    Sorry, blankman I only have a digital watch!!!!!

    by ObiJuan on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:56:45 AM EDT

    •  a good trick is to give him a controller without (none / 0)

      turning it on while you play. I used to do that with my sister until she figured out you have to turn it on, now all she wants to do is play videogames with me haha.

      by BoxinLeprechaun on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 12:09:25 PM EDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I sat cross-legged with Johann in my lap (none / 0)

        when he was 9 months old.  I was playing N64.  He sat their happy for what must have been several hours.  Later that evening, he grabbed the controller the correct way and started moving his thumbs, and glancing up at the TV.  He fully understood the relationship between the controller and the events on the screen.

        By the time he was 2, we had moved to Canada and purchased Banjo Kazooie.  He was no longer satisfied to just watch, or hold an unconnected controller.  In fact, he never let me give him a controller that was unconnected.  That was another thing he understood immediately.

        I doubt that getting Korben to enjoy video games will present any kind of challenge at all.

        by 3Suns on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 07:05:11 PM EDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Good Topic (none / 0)

    I think everyone pretty much covered what I would say.  I have never let my kids watch Gears.  I do play Halo with them but not the "Flood" scenes...

    I stay away from scary.  Too gory.  Too foolish (no Raving Rabbits - even though we have played it together, I got rid of it...)

    I go with the "What am I peaceful with?..." rule.

    "I do not tell lies, but I am a savage" ~ William Wallace

    by Kenai 91 on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:35:32 PM EDT

  •  Turning it back.. (none / 0)

    My first M rated game...was the Resident Evil series, followed by Dino Crisis.  I was probably, wow, 5 years old with the first Resident Evil?  But I've turned out very well.  On Live, you won't hear me cursing or anything much unless someone starts digging in to me...I just find that no one wants to hear it, so why be a part in it?
    As far as game's going too far, I think as long as the parent/guardian/sibling can keep the content controlled or make sure the young player understands the right and wrongs and knowledge on what is going in the game, then I believe the developers should be free to include the content they want to.  Understand that this stuff first has to be cleared to go from a pitch, go through numerous PR supervisions and evaluations, and get past the ESRB and the media.

    ArkkAngel007

    by Mr C on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:49:35 PM EDT

  •  I perfectly agree with Crunk's statement (none / 0)

    err,... paragraph. It really has to be up to the parent AND the child to know when too young is too young. The parent has to observe the child's behavior, while the child also has to be smart enough to know the difference between a game and real life. I was fortunate enough, like Elite, to be brought up around Pokemon early in life (and even now! :P) and move on to more mature games. My parents even made sure to teach me the understanding of real life and fantasy: that games are simply games and nothing more.

    Like I said, it's a double sided argument in that the parent has to observe the child's maturity and make the judgment from there, and the child to have the knowledge to distinguish between two very different things.

    "Y'all can just kiss da baby."

    by ajABE on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 09:33:05 PM EDT

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